Thoughts on Charleston and liberal apologists...

Scolai

Active Member
The flag is a symbol - nothing more, nothing less. The thing I find most compelling is that those who insist that the flag represents racism and hate is adamant that ALL people accept their interpretation of the flag without question or digression. Believe it or not, there are fine well-adjusted people who see the flag as a symbol of southern pride and heritage - a representation of what it means to be from the south. God, guns, and country.

But NO! We must ALL conform to one side of the argument - the least accommodating and most aggressive side. There's no room in their minds to accept that not everyone who flies a flag of the Confederacy is racist and full of hate. Indeed, most of those southern people are NOT as described.

But... you know... fuck the facts. PC for you and me!
 

livespive

Well-Known Member
Yes, but the fact is, the flag represent the war that was fought over slavery, and to fly it over a government building shouldn't be done.
What is the southern pride that you talk of? Slavery? what? everyone says southern pride, but they don't say what they are proud of?


The flag is a symbol - nothing more, nothing less. The thing I find most compelling is that those who insist that the flag represents racism and hate is adamant that ALL people accept their interpretation of the flag without question or digression. Believe it or not, there are fine well-adjusted people who see the flag as a symbol of southern pride and heritage - a representation of what it means to be from the south. God, guns, and country.

But NO! We must ALL conform to one side of the argument - the least accommodating and most aggressive side. There's no room in their minds to accept that not everyone who flies a flag of the Confederacy is racist and full of hate. Indeed, most of those southern people are NOT as described.

But... you know... fuck the facts. PC for you and me!
 

9andaWiggle

Addicted Member
How about southern hospitality? I have found, generally speaking (there are always exceptions) people down south are more polite, more approachable (less pretentious), quicker to welcome strangers - who often become quick friends, more willing to jump in and help or give the shirt off their back to help someone in need. Oh, and the food is out freaking standing!

Secondly, in regards to the war... Keep in mind the history books are always written by the victors. I doubt highly the majority of the dead on the Southern side were wealthy slave owners. Some call them traitors, and I suppose the definition fits. But so were our own Patriots that fought the Brits. Both were a people fighting for what they thought was right - fighting for the life they knew, or the life they wanted. Maybe their ideals were proven wrong as time went on, but they fought for what they believed was right - which I think is a respectable trait. And Southerners today are still proud and willing to fight for what they believe in.

To me, that is what modern day Southern Pride is about.
 

Scolai

Active Member
Yes, but the fact is, the flag represent the war that was fought over slavery, and to fly it over a government building shouldn't be done.
What is the southern pride that you talk of? Slavery? what? everyone says southern pride, but they don't say what they are proud of?
You're not from the South, are you. If you were from the South, you wouldn't ask the question.

The South does represent rebellion, but not necessarily simply for the right to hold slaves. We here in the South rebel against northern convention. As I said, God, guns and country. We would rather go to a tractor pull than a Broadway show. We take our huntin' and fishin' serious around here. Our kids grow up learning how to shoot a gun, kill a deer, and respect the life they take in the process. We are polite to our neighbors, and we greet strangers with a smile and a wave. We disdain city life as constricting and counter-cultural.

Here in the South, we like the simple life. None of that hustle and bustle for us; we like sitting on our porch drinking sweet tea (or beer) and talking to our families. There's a reason we have the big wrap-around porches on our traditional Southern homes - I've got 500 sq. ft. of front porch myself, complete with a bar and a table & chairs. It's where we have cookouts with our friends and neighbors - and we know how to have a cookout. My wife's birthday cookout included a whole hog that we cooked for 8 hours for the 40-50 people that came to celebrate.

We're proud of our warm weather. Hell, we dig pits in a field, fill them with water, and drive our 4-wheel-drive trucks and 4-wheelers through them. If it's rained recently, we go muddin' in those same trucks in vacant farm fields. If we're a little too warm, we put a tarp in the back of our 4X4 pickup and fill the bed with water for a makeshift swimming pool. If needed, we'll take that same truck, drive it up the road, and pull your pitiful Northern sedan out of the muddy ditch you drove it into. And we'll offer you a ride, a drink, some warm southern cooking, or a prayer before you head off.

And no one retires and heads north.

The way we see Northerners (true or not) is sitting in their mid-town apartment surrounded by a lot of traffic and asphalt. They walk their streets, but don't talk to others. Friendliness is actually greeting with suspicion. They prefer coffee or unsweet tea to sweet tea and wine to beer. They go to stage shows and the orchestra and reject the great outdoors. Their life is cold (both physically and emotionally).

I think to boil it down, we here in the South are just proud that we're not Northerners. Not that we once owned slaves, not that we once rebelled against the Union (although that may still linger in there somewhere). We're just proud that we're not popsicle-brained, rude, indoor-loving Northerners.
 

Greg T.

The Jizz Slinger
You're not from the South, are you. If you were from the South, you wouldn't ask the question.

The South does represent rebellion, but not necessarily simply for the right to hold slaves. We here in the South rebel against northern convention. As I said, God, guns and country. We would rather go to a tractor pull than a Broadway show. We take our huntin' and fishin' serious around here. Our kids grow up learning how to shoot a gun, kill a deer, and respect the life they take in the process. We are polite to our neighbors, and we greet strangers with a smile and a wave. We disdain city life as constricting and counter-cultural.

Here in the South, we like the simple life. None of that hustle and bustle for us; we like sitting on our porch drinking sweet tea (or beer) and talking to our families. There's a reason we have the big wrap-around porches on our traditional Southern homes - I've got 500 sq. ft. of front porch myself, complete with a bar and a table & chairs. It's where we have cookouts with our friends and neighbors - and we know how to have a cookout. My wife's birthday cookout included a whole hog that we cooked for 8 hours for the 40-50 people that came to celebrate.

We're proud of our warm weather. Hell, we dig pits in a field, fill them with water, and drive our 4-wheel-drive trucks and 4-wheelers through them. If it's rained recently, we go muddin' in those same trucks in vacant farm fields. If we're a little too warm, we put a tarp in the back of our 4X4 pickup and fill the bed with water for a makeshift swimming pool. If needed, we'll take that same truck, drive it up the road, and pull your pitiful Northern sedan out of the muddy ditch you drove it into. And we'll offer you a ride, a drink, some warm southern cooking, or a prayer before you head off.

And no one retires and heads north.

The way we see Northerners (true or not) is sitting in their mid-town apartment surrounded by a lot of traffic and asphalt. They walk their streets, but don't talk to others. Friendliness is actually greeting with suspicion. They prefer coffee or unsweet tea to sweet tea and wine to beer. They go to stage shows and the orchestra and reject the great outdoors. Their life is cold (both physically and emotionally).

I think to boil it down, we here in the South are just proud that we're not Northerners. Not that we once owned slaves, not that we once rebelled against the Union (although that may still linger in there somewhere). We're just proud that we're not popsicle-brained, rude, indoor-loving Northerners.

Michigan's U.P.....the little South..
 

9andaWiggle

Addicted Member
Well stated, ScolaI. :Thumbsup:

"No one retires and moves up north."

So true. My neighbors, originally from NJ, have been in Texas for 2 stints of 10 and 15 or so years (with 10 in Florida following the 80's oil bust). Both told their families years ago "Ain't no way in hell we're ever moving back up there!"

Although they do miss the great seafood... But now they would like to lock down the Texas borders and "Keep any more of those damn Yankees from moving in and screwing things up." lol
 
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Robadat

Member
Yes, but the fact is, the flag represent the war that was fought over slavery, and to fly it over a government building shouldn't be done.
What is the southern pride that you talk of? Slavery? what? everyone says southern pride, but they don't say what they are proud of?

Well stated, ScolaI. :Thumbsup:
You, too 9...

Two of our Southerners have told you what it means to them and have showed you are way off the mark on what it means to them.
As a Northerner, from the many Southern people I have met over the last fifty years, I have never thought Southern Pride means they are proud of the slavery days, it has always meant their fine hospitality, great cooking and a good trait of helping neighbors out in times of need. That's just my opinion as an outsider of those many people I have had the opportunity to meet.
 

9andaWiggle

Addicted Member
Thanks Robadat. And truly, all northerners are not created equal. Michigan was interesting when we lived up there (south central part). The people weren't immediately welcoming, but as they got to know you they were great. Just took them some time to accept outsiders I guess.

I found Wisconsin to be very welcoming, as was da UP, eh. Never been further north/east than Columbus Ohio - unless you count the couple hours we spent at the Amtrak station in Buffalo, NY on the way to Niagara Falls.

And there are others I've met that are great. And a few assholes from NYC (never personally met anyone from there that I've liked, but there have only been about 3, so not a very good sample size).

One final word on racism and the north/south... I'm sick of the north playing the part of "moral superiors" when it comes to racism, especially after hearing countless yanks say extremely racist things about minorities. Many are just as, if not more racist than they accuse any rebel flag waving redneck of being.
 

livespive

Well-Known Member
Actually I am, my roots are from from Mississippi. My dad was born there, and we went every year when I was a kid in the summer.
It wasn't all iced tea and hospitality. Like 9 said in general they might seem to have hospitality, but that depends on where you are.

You're not from the South, are you. If you were from the South, you wouldn't ask the question.

The South does represent rebellion, but not necessarily simply for the right to hold slaves. We here in the South rebel against northern convention. As I said, God, guns and country. We would rather go to a tractor pull than a Broadway show. We take our huntin' and fishin' serious around here. Our kids grow up learning how to shoot a gun, kill a deer, and respect the life they take in the process. We are polite to our neighbors, and we greet strangers with a smile and a wave. We disdain city life as constricting and counter-cultural.

Here in the South, we like the simple life. None of that hustle and bustle for us; we like sitting on our porch drinking sweet tea (or beer) and talking to our families. There's a reason we have the big wrap-around porches on our traditional Southern homes - I've got 500 sq. ft. of front porch myself, complete with a bar and a table & chairs. It's where we have cookouts with our friends and neighbors - and we know how to have a cookout. My wife's birthday cookout included a whole hog that we cooked for 8 hours for the 40-50 people that came to celebrate.

We're proud of our warm weather. Hell, we dig pits in a field, fill them with water, and drive our 4-wheel-drive trucks and 4-wheelers through them. If it's rained recently, we go muddin' in those same trucks in vacant farm fields. If we're a little too warm, we put a tarp in the back of our 4X4 pickup and fill the bed with water for a makeshift swimming pool. If needed, we'll take that same truck, drive it up the road, and pull your pitiful Northern sedan out of the muddy ditch you drove it into. And we'll offer you a ride, a drink, some warm southern cooking, or a prayer before you head off.

And no one retires and heads north.

The way we see Northerners (true or not) is sitting in their mid-town apartment surrounded by a lot of traffic and asphalt. They walk their streets, but don't talk to others. Friendliness is actually greeting with suspicion. They prefer coffee or unsweet tea to sweet tea and wine to beer. They go to stage shows and the orchestra and reject the great outdoors. Their life is cold (both physically and emotionally).

I think to boil it down, we here in the South are just proud that we're not Northerners. Not that we once owned slaves, not that we once rebelled against the Union (although that may still linger in there somewhere). We're just proud that we're not popsicle-brained, rude, indoor-loving Northerners.
 

Djarum300

Addicted Member
I'm from Florida, so its a wild mixed bag.

Now living in Northern Alabama, southern pride has its place, but is seen far more just south of here.
 

livespive

Well-Known Member
Then both would be wrong, different people have different experiences coming from the south.
Just because you are from the south doesn't mean it is going to be that way.

You, too 9...

Two of our Southerners have told you what it means to them and have showed you are way off the mark on what it means to them.
As a Northerner, from the many Southern people I have met over the last fifty years, I have never thought Southern Pride means they are proud of the slavery days, it has always meant their fine hospitality, great cooking and a good trait of helping neighbors out in times of need. That's just my opinion as an outsider of those many people I have had the opportunity to meet.
 

9andaWiggle

Addicted Member
Hey 9, I'm a NYer...;)
But after I retire...I won't be living there any more...:)
I was thinking you were, but I wasn't sure if you were NYC or NY State. That's why I pointed out the small sample size, there has to be some good ones in there somewhere! ;)
 

9andaWiggle

Addicted Member
Then both would be wrong, different people have different experiences coming from the south.
Just because you are from the south doesn't mean it is going to be that way.
But that doesn't make you right either.

Maybe right for where you were/are and who you were in contact with, but not right for the entirety of the region. This applies to my experiences as well.

As stated earlier, the north doesn't get a free pass. There are people up there equally as racist as any stereotypical southern kkk member - they just don't wear sheets and go to meetings.
 

livespive

Well-Known Member
Yeah,

My wife wants to move down there. She went with me for my Grand Mothers funeral.
Don't know if I want to pick up and leave my mother.....Yeah yeah momma's boy

Hey 9, I'm a NYer...;)
But after I retire...I won't be living there any more...:)
 

livespive

Well-Known Member
But that's the point that I am making.....

Everyone is saying that the south is hospitality, and tea, but there is snother side to things too.
Don't get me wrong, I do love the south, my dad came from the south. Our family is there....

But I don't need the flag to show that I have southern pride. You can tell that by my character.

But that doesn't make you right either.

Maybe right for where you were/are and who you were in contact with, but not right for the entirety of the region. This applies to my experiences as well.

As stated earlier, the north doesn't get a free pass. There are people up there equally as racist as any stereotypical southern kkk member - they just don't wear sheets and go to meetings.
 

Scolai

Active Member
But that's the point that I am making.....

Everyone is saying that the south is hospitality, and tea, but there is snother side to things too.
Don't get me wrong, I do love the south, my dad came from the south. Our family is there....

But I don't need the flag to show that I have southern pride. You can tell that by my character.
You don't need it. You don't want it. But you're not everyone in the South. And I can promise you that people who fly that flag are more concerned with Southern Pride and not slavery.
 
The flag is a symbol - nothing more, nothing less. The thing I find most compelling is that those who insist that the flag represents racism and hate is adamant that ALL people accept their interpretation of the flag without question or digression. Believe it or not, there are fine well-adjusted people who see the flag as a symbol of southern pride and heritage - a representation of what it means to be from the south. God, guns, and country.

But NO! We must ALL conform to one side of the argument - the least accommodating and most aggressive side. There's no room in their minds to accept that not everyone who flies a flag of the Confederacy is racist and full of hate. Indeed, most of those southern people are NOT as described.

But... you know... fuck the facts. PC for you and me!
I quoted this post, but it goes to a lot of what was written. This was why I brought up the Nazi Flag. You're not German are you Scolai? Many fly that flag not as a sign of hate but as a sign of German pride. We must everyone accept that that flag is all about hate. Believe it or not there are fine well adjusted people who see that flag as a symbol of German pride and heritage - a representation of what it means to be German.

But NO!! We must ALL conform to one side of the argument - the least accommodating and most aggressive side. There is no room to accept that not everyone who flies a Nazi Flag is full of hate.

Sounds kind of dumb in this regard doesn't it...so why is it ok with Confederate Flag. There are many who find that flag offensive, just as many find the Nazi Flag offensive. I don't see people, other than the white supremacists arguing about flying that flag. It represents slavery and the fact that people went to war, decided they would kill their fellow Americans in order to continue to OWN other people. This isn't about being PC, this is about respect. Respect the fact that this flag was born, was created to be symbol of those people who wanted to continue to call African-Americans property and not people. Just like we should respect the disgust of someone of Jewish heritage toward the Nazi Flag. You can say those that fly it don't harbor racism or hate...and that maybe 100% true....but that doesn't mean they can fly a flag that does represent those things.
 
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