Patriotism

[Good Times Good Times]

Is forced patriotism authentic?

Does forced patriotism appease?

Here's what I'm struggling to understand. I personally stand for the anthem but for the interest of discussion let's assume I do not (and the reason I do not is xyz). How/Why does me being forced to stand and fake patriotism make YOU feel better (especially if it's insincere)?

 

[Greg T.]

Is forced patriotism authentic?

Does forced patriotism appease?

Here's what I'm struggling to understand. I personally stand for the anthem but for the interest of discussion let's assume I do not (and the reason I do not is xyz). How/Why does me being forced to stand and fake patriotism make YOU feel better (especially if it's insincere)?

It means NOTHING. One should WANT to stand and honor our flag and country. Being forced to do so has no meaning what so ever, and I think it's a stupid idea to force the players to stand. I DO think it should be part of their paycheck, as their pay should begin when they enter the stadium. If they don't want to stand and honor the country, that's fine, but they should be docked for that time.

 

[9andaWiggle]

Business doesn't play by the same rules as the government. The long and short of it is the not standing for the anthem is costing the NFL money. If they weren't losing money/viewers or having trouble with sponsors they wouldn't care one way or the other.

I was thinking about this earlier, after reading a football player making a statement about making him stand squashes his first amendment rights. No it doesn't. He's still free to kneel if he wants - nobody is going to arrest him and cart him off to jail. Will his employer punish him for going against policy and ceeating more turmoil that could cost them money? Possibly. Probably.

Is it forced patriotism, or good business? I don't know. Certain actions are causing the business distress. Therefore, it is in the business' (and the employees of said business) best interest to bring it to a halt and start making money again before the damage done is more costly/difficult to recover from.

Another thought on forced patriotism... my generation and prior grew up with it. We were made to stand and say the pledge of allegiance in school. We were made to stand for the national anthem. If we didn't, there weren't "safe spaces" we could go to. We weren't considered to be "expressing ourselves". We were considered deviant, and we got in trouble - in some cases we got our asses beat if we didn't do as we were told.

Different world, different times. Shit, I'm sounding like an old fart! GET OFF MY LAWN YOU DAMN KIDS!!

 

[9andaWiggle]

Is forced patriotism authentic?

Does forced patriotism appease?

Here's what I'm struggling to understand. I personally stand for the anthem but for the interest of discussion let's assume I do not (and the reason I do not is xyz). How/Why does me being forced to stand and fake patriotism make YOU feel better (especially if it's insincere)?

Went back and re-read, and my first response strayed way off the inital questions. I guess it could make me feel better in that I wouldn't know if it's sincere or not, and thus I wouldn't even be thinking about it.

So it wouldn't be sincere, but nobody would know. Thus, it would appease.

 

[WAMO]

I GUESS I CAN ONLY ANSWER THE QUESTION WITH A QUESTION. WHY SHOULD ANYONE HAVE TO FORCE PATRIOTISM ON ANYONE ELSE? SHOULDNT IT JUST COME NATUALLY AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN? OK, THAT WAS 2 QUESTIONS.

 

[Good Times Good Times]

Fair points Greg and ~9.......I just kind of was curious to some opinions here.

Business doesn't play by the same rules as the government. The long and short of it is the not standing for the anthem is costing the NFL money. If they weren't losing money/viewers or having trouble with sponsors they wouldn't care one way or the other.

I was thinking about this earlier, after reading a football player making a statement about making him stand squashes his first amendment rights. No it doesn't. He's still free to kneel if he wants - nobody is going to arrest him and cart him off to jail. Will his employer punish him for going against policy and ceeating more turmoil that could cost them money? Possibly. Probably.

Is it forced patriotism, or good business? I don't know. Certain actions are causing the business distress. Therefore, it is in the business' (and the employees of said business) best interest to bring it to a halt and start making money again before the damage done is more costly/difficult to recover from.

I'm of a similar view to you, though not entirely. I just find it ironic that disingenuous acts are good business. I'll also ask myself why I should/would care so much about what someone else does (especially if non-violent or not a financial crime or something of that like). The personal relationship of ~9 and Greg T with the American flag......I just don't get why that would fire me up EITHER WAY so much as to not make me attend an event or make me emotional. I also do not feel that that makes me less patriotic or love my country any less. I struggle to reconcile how it does for some....

Another thought on forced patriotism... my generation and prior grew up with it. We were made to stand and say the pledge of allegiance in school. We were made to stand for the national anthem. If we didn't, there weren't "safe spaces" we could go to. We weren't considered to be "expressing ourselves". We were considered deviant, and we got in trouble - in some cases we got our asses beat if we didn't do as we were told.

How very authoritarian/tyrannical of them. I just feel like those sentiments go against every fabric of my being. Smacks of what North Korea does....seriously that sounds like North Korea.

All that being said..........I do stand for the anthem b/c I realize that even w/all of the MAJOR issues our country has (corrupt politicians, mass shootings, forced patriotism, divided populace, mass wealth inequality, racism, cookie-cutter race cars and bro-country) it is still the best this world has to offer. But again......the obsession some have with how others express themselves, I find quite sad.

 

[9andaWiggle]

GTGT - when you look back, America has been very authoritarian, at least since Christianity gained significant influence. Remember when we burned witches? And left handed people were forced to write right handed because it was the correct hand to use? It's not until fairly recent the iron grip has started to loosen.

So a lot of people are stuck in the middle, so to speak. Many grew up with what is clearly right or wrong ingrained into their developmental years, and that's hard to break. Younger generations are getting less and less of that growing up. So you basically wind up with this:

 

[9andaWiggle]

I GUESS I CAN ONLY ANSWER THE QUESTION WITH A QUESTION. WHY SHOULD ANYONE HAVE TO FORCE PATRIOTISM ON ANYONE ELSE? SHOULDNT IT JUST COME NATUALLY AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN? OK, THAT WAS 2 QUESTIONS.

For some of us, yes. For others, I can see why they may not feel the love for country.

Why would a Native American love the USA? I'm sure some/many do, but they certainly have a reason to feel less warm and fuzzy about it.

Same for African Americans. Or even Mexican Americans. In all of these examples, the USA has taken either land or people (or both) from their ancestors by force. Again, many have assimilated and even fought/died for this country since and still are. But there is a history that gives plenty of reason for people to not feel that this land is their land.

 

[Greg T.]

For some of us, yes. For others, I can see why they may not feel the love for country.

Why would a Native American love the USA? I'm sure some/many do, but they certainly have a reason to feel less warm and fuzzy about it.

Same for African Americans. Or even Mexican Americans. In all of these examples, the USA has taken either land or people (or both) from their ancestors by force. Again, many have assimilated and even fought/died for this country since and still are. But there is a history that gives plenty of reason for people to not feel that this land is their land.

I don't think the big question is about whether or not someone should be forced to love the country and the flag as much as it is about being forced to show or display love for a country in which you feel no allegiance. I DO feel that , if in the spotlight and taking a paycheck of American money, it's only right NOT to show disrespect. In the case of the NFL players, regardless of their position in various political policies, they should show respect for the country in which they earn (or don't "earn") millions of dollars.

 

[Good Times Good Times]

I respect your opinion here Greg.

I think the question I have is why some folks put so much value in the display of respect from another person. I say that as a college graduate in American History and having had many family members serve in the armed forces.

So much emotional investment in the actions of others. A very bizarre thing to me, but as ~9 alluded to......controlled authoritarian indoctrination as children. Gotta be strong enough to overcome that and think independently.

 

[Greg T.]

I respect your opinion here Greg.

I think the question I have is why some folks put so much value in the display of respect from another person. I say that as a college graduate in American History and having had many family members serve in the armed forces.

So much emotional investment in the actions of others. A very bizarre thing to me, but as ~9 alluded to......controlled authoritarian indoctrination as children. Gotta be strong enough to overcome that and think independently.

I can understand that. But to go a bit further, I believe a child should be taught the TRUTH when it comes to history class instead of what we've all been fed over the years. It's not a secret how badly and inaccurate our history books have been written for the past 100 years or so. The combination of being taught the truth, and the parents taking control of the child's respect, or lack there-of at home may make for a less volatile society in the future. Just as a child is raised into a particular religion, so should the child be raised when it comes to allegiance. BUT, a person who takes issue with their church would not protest, burn, loot, rape, or kill it's parishioners. They would move to another church. So should those who take offense with the country.

 

[Good Times Good Times]

I don't think a non-violent protest is the same as burning, looting, raping or killing though....

I think it's possible to have (and air) grievance w/o necessarily "hating" the country to the point of leaving. I don't see the issue in bringing attention to a cause. That's as American as it gets.

If you want to make the argument from the business perspective.........OK..........but, then we go around and around in circles about it being insincere.

Regardless. It's an interesting discussion. Reminds me of this:

 

[WAMO]

AND RESPECT IS THE THING GT. ALMOST EVERYTIME A PLAYER HAS A CONTRACT DISPUTE OR A DISAGREEMENT WITH ANOTHER PLAYER, THATS THE FIRST THING THEY HOLLAR "THEY DONT RESPECT ME". IT SHOULD WORK BOTH WAYS SHOULDNT IT? IF THATS WAY OFF BASE, SORRY.

 

[WAMO]

AND MY THOUGHT PROCESS IS IF THEY ARE BORN HERE THEY ARE AMERICAN FIRST ETHNICITY SECOND.
AMERICAN AFRICAN - AMERICAN MEXICAN - SO ON AND SO ON. RIGHT? BECAUSE IF EVERYONE WANTS A LEVEL PLAYING FEILD, WE ARE ALL AMERICANS FIRST. IF WE CANT GET PAST THAT, THEN WE HAVE NO CHANCE AT ALL.

 

[bbfreeburn]

AND MY THOUGHT PROCESS IS IF THEY ARE BORN HERE THEY ARE AMERICAN FIRST ETHNICITY SECOND.
AMERICAN AFRICAN - AMERICAN MEXICAN - SO ON AND SO ON. RIGHT? BECAUSE IF EVERYONE WANTS A LEVEL PLAYING FEILD, WE ARE ALL AMERICANS FIRST. IF WE CANT GET PAST THAT, THEN WE HAVE NO CHANCE AT ALL.

When you sign your name do you put your last name first? I think it's the same deal.
Americans are a family, hence American comes last.

 

[livespive]

Example,

The pledge....

"with liberty, and justice for ALL"

IF you feel that there is no liberty, or justice, then you protest.....

Anything else is forced.

I GUESS I CAN ONLY ANSWER THE QUESTION WITH A QUESTION. WHY SHOULD ANYONE HAVE TO FORCE PATRIOTISM ON ANYONE ELSE? SHOULDNT IT JUST COME NATUALLY AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN? OK, THAT WAS 2 QUESTIONS.

 

[WAMO]

ACTUALLY BB, IF YOUR BORN HERE, YOU ARE AN AMERICAN PERIOD. YOU MAY HAVE HISPANIC (OR FILL IN THE BLANK) BACKGOUND, BUT YOU ARE AMERICAN. THATS WHERE WE ARE FAILING TO BE A "FAMILY", PUTTING AMERICA LAST. NOT ME!

 

[WAMO]

LIVE, PROTESTING ONLY CAUSES MORE RIFT BETWEEN THE SIDES. PROTESTING DOESNT WORK BECAUSE NEITHER SIDE IS WILLING TO BEND. EACH SIDE WANTS IT 75% (OR MORE) THEIR WAY. ITS NEVER 50 / 50. TALKING IT OUT IS THE ONLY RATIONAL WAY TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING. BUT...BOTH SIDES HAVE TO BE WILLING TO LISTEN.

 

[WAMO]

GOOD THREAD GUYS. THANKS GT!

 

[livespive]

Sorry, been gone for a while......

SO then what do you do, just sit there and take it?????

The protesting is done in an attempt to try and get to the talking. That is the problem.
The other side never wants to talk.

LIVE, PROTESTING ONLY CAUSES MORE RIFT BETWEEN THE SIDES. PROTESTING DOESNT WORK BECAUSE NEITHER SIDE IS WILLING TO BEND. EACH SIDE WANTS IT 75% (OR MORE) THEIR WAY. ITS NEVER 50 / 50. TALKING IT OUT IS THE ONLY RATIONAL WAY TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING. BUT...BOTH SIDES HAVE TO BE WILLING TO LISTEN.