It's not just that though. A person should not be detained unless there is probable cause. But probable cause is so thin. A warrant is one thing, just guessing is another.
Officer Jitters Raises Questions
- Thread starter livespive
- Start date
Robadat
Member
I think you're confusing the terms "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause".
Reasonable suspicion is a reasonable presumption that a crime has been, is being, or will be committed. It is a reasonable belief based on facts or circumstances and is informed by a police officer’s training and experience. Reasonable suspicion is seen as more than a guess or hunch but less than probable cause.
Probable cause is the logical belief, supported by facts and circumstances, that a crime has been, is being, or will be committed.
You can be detained, checked for weapons and questioned by Police under "reasonable suspicion". Any weapon found, whether legally owned or not, can be secured by the cop until you are released or, if probable cause exists, arrested.
The Police can't arrest you unless there is "probable cause".
Yes, but the line is still very thin, and most cops are calling reasonable suspicion, probable cause.
That's the problem,
That's the problem,
Robadat
Member
No, that's media's error. Cops are taught to know what the difference between the two are. Are there mistakes made by cops? Sure, but it is still nowhere near the norm. As I said, if a cop has reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed, he can stop frisk and question you. You can't be arrested unless he has probable cause that you committed a crime. He then will have to explain what that probable cause is to his supervisors, State Attorney, and a Judge plus provide all physical evidence to them for the arrest to be brought to Court and eventual trial.
I have done hundreds of Terry Stops in my career, many have walked away free after my suspicions have been allayed by questioning of the subject, a good number also ended up under arrest. All part of doing the job to the best of my ability.
Yes, but what cops are taught, and what they do are two different things.
I know it's not the norm, but it is growing. That is the problem.
I know it's not the norm, but it is growing. That is the problem.
Greg T.
The Jizz Slinger
And that is the key, right there. The best of one's ability may or may not better than someone else's. Some bowlers are better than others, some mechanics better than others, and some cops better than others. People are not machines. People have individual thoughts and reactions. Some cops will react differently than others. The most important issue has already been stated. If a cop yells at you to do something, just do it. You can always ask WHY later, but at least you'll be alive to ask.
Yes, and all too often reasonable suspicion is abused. Checkpoints are one insurance. Noncompliance during a checkpoint is not enough for reasonable suspicion as long as I clearly state to an officer what my right are. Also, an officer who doesn't understand the law and a citizens proper understanding of the law who refuses an officers orders based on that understanding. Case in point is photography in a public place.
LIVE. NO SIR, I WOULD NOT CARE. AND I WOULD FOLLOW HIS ORDERS. IF I FIT THE DISCRIPTION OF SOMEONE THEY ARE LOOKING FOR, I WOULD GIVE THEM WHATEVER THEY NEEDED TO SHOW THEM I AINT THAT GUY. AND IF IT IS ME, I SHOULDNT HAVE DONE SOMETHING WRONG.
POLICE WILL NEVER HAVE THE ABILITY TO HAVE 100% THE SAME THOUGHT PROCESS. ALL SITUATIONS IN REAL LIFE DONT COMPARE TO TRAINING. IT DOESNT HAPPEN IN ANY JOB. INDIVIDUALS CANT BE TRAINED TO HAVE THE SAME REACTION EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY.
POLICE WILL NEVER HAVE THE ABILITY TO HAVE 100% THE SAME THOUGHT PROCESS. ALL SITUATIONS IN REAL LIFE DONT COMPARE TO TRAINING. IT DOESNT HAPPEN IN ANY JOB. INDIVIDUALS CANT BE TRAINED TO HAVE THE SAME REACTION EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY.
sevenpin63
Addicted Member
What do you mean away go your freedoms? It's been like this as far as I can remember. What I see is a lot of people getting butt sore thinking they are above the law or should get special privileges, sorry it doesn't work like that in real life.
Not at all,
As mentioned in the other post, if we must prove that we are not that person, then they need to prove that they are looking for such said person.
Just walking up to me saying that look like some guy just won't cut it, not today......
It might have worked back in the day.
As mentioned in the other post, if we must prove that we are not that person, then they need to prove that they are looking for such said person.
Just walking up to me saying that look like some guy just won't cut it, not today......
It might have worked back in the day.
9andaWiggle
Addicted Member
I don't follow... if I'm out minding my business and an officer approaches and asks me some questions, why would any sane person make their lives more difficult by infusing drama unnecessarily into the situation?
Officer: "Good morning, sir. How are you doing today?"
Me: "Fuck you pig! I got rights! I don't have to answer your baseless interrogation!"
* runs away*
For most the conversation doesn't start like that. IF you add stop and frisk it just gets worse.
To use your example:
Officer: "Good morning, sir. How are you doing today? (I have here a description of someone that was in this area 'paper shown' do you know anything/ or I see you don't match exactly. Good day.)"
Real world:
Officer: FREEZE!!!!!
To use somebody's phrase "This isn't Mayberry" Yes there are kind cops, but more cops need people skills.
Yeah, back in the day you had cops that walked around in the hood, and everyone knew them. Now a cop just rolls up.
The same way you have police substations, you can work in a meet and greet. Columbus just had a Neighborhood meeting because of the local shootings. Why not be proactive, have the meeting at the substation, or the local rec center which is where this one was before things happen....
These are your local officers working in this substation then Q&A. If there is a drastic change in who is there have another one.
Same way we had safety city back in the day. The police would stop by the schools, and then the police dept made a little mock city across from the park, and the kids from school were brought there to learn safety....
I don't know if they do it in my home town anymore, but I do know crime has gone up from the time that I was a kid.
To use your example:
Officer: "Good morning, sir. How are you doing today? (I have here a description of someone that was in this area 'paper shown' do you know anything/ or I see you don't match exactly. Good day.)"
Real world:
Officer: FREEZE!!!!!
To use somebody's phrase "This isn't Mayberry" Yes there are kind cops, but more cops need people skills.
Yeah, back in the day you had cops that walked around in the hood, and everyone knew them. Now a cop just rolls up.
The same way you have police substations, you can work in a meet and greet. Columbus just had a Neighborhood meeting because of the local shootings. Why not be proactive, have the meeting at the substation, or the local rec center which is where this one was before things happen....
These are your local officers working in this substation then Q&A. If there is a drastic change in who is there have another one.
Same way we had safety city back in the day. The police would stop by the schools, and then the police dept made a little mock city across from the park, and the kids from school were brought there to learn safety....
I don't know if they do it in my home town anymore, but I do know crime has gone up from the time that I was a kid.
I don't follow... if I'm out minding my business and an officer approaches and asks me some questions, why would any sane person make their lives more difficult by infusing drama unnecessarily into the situation?
Officer: "Good morning, sir. How are you doing today?"
Me: "Fuck you pig! I got rights! I don't have to answer your baseless interrogation!"
* runs away*
LIKE YOU JUST SAID LIVE, CRIME HAS GONE UP. MORE THUGS CARRYING GUNS. SO WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE WHAT PHRASE THEY USE TO GET SOMEONES ATTENTION. IF THEY HAVE A DISCRIPTION OF A PERP, THEY DONT KNOW ITS NOT YOU. AND I THINK MORE PEOPLE NEED TO BE MORE REALISTIC TO COPS. DO WHAT THEY SAY. THATS JUST COMMON SENSE. YOU SAY MORE COPS NEED BETTER PEOPLE SKILLS. I SEE A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE THAT NEED BETTER PEOPLE SKILLS. COPS ARE PEOPLE TOO, JUST TRYING TO DO THEIR JOB WITHOUT BEING ANTAGONISED BY PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY ARE ABOVE THE LAW.
9andaWiggle
Addicted Member
I don't know. I'm a few drinks in, and I've tried to come up with a good response, but it keeps coming out kinda preachy and Mayberry-ish. I've deleted my response a few times...
I guess the problem is my experiences are such that I cannot fully see your viewpoint. And I don't want to dismiss your point of view. I just think, since I haven't lived it, I cannot comprehend such a distrust of the police. I cannot believe they are that bad. That they are so systemically racist. Or maybe I don't want to believe it. Shit, it's 2016... why aren't we past this stuff by now?
And that is the point exactly........
Most white people just dimiss what is going on, and cannot think outside the box......
Like I said before aske the pregnant white couple if they think what the cops did was justified. I'll bet they say no.
Or ask this guy:
http://q13fox.com/2016/06/09/cop-st...to-cardiac-arrest-causing-brain-damage-video/
http://nypost.com/video/dashcam-footage-shows-cop-tasing-a-teen-into-cardiac-arrest/
Which brings up the elephant in the room.
This officer gets time for violating the drivers rights, stuns him, sends him into cardiac arrest.
The other officer pulls car over with driver girlfriend/wife and child. The guy is doing what he is supposed to be doing, but the cop
fires into a car full of people. I don't know if he got time, I think the case is still open.
The officers are kill black folks and don't get time. The officer stuns a white guy and gets time for violating his rights.....That's why Black people get upset.
What's the difference, one driver is white, one is black. would the cop that stunned the white driver also have stunned a black driver, I don't know, but you can only look at the patterns just like everyone else, and the patter says he probably would have shot.
Most white people just dimiss what is going on, and cannot think outside the box......
Like I said before aske the pregnant white couple if they think what the cops did was justified. I'll bet they say no.
Or ask this guy:
http://q13fox.com/2016/06/09/cop-st...to-cardiac-arrest-causing-brain-damage-video/
http://nypost.com/video/dashcam-footage-shows-cop-tasing-a-teen-into-cardiac-arrest/
Which brings up the elephant in the room.
This officer gets time for violating the drivers rights, stuns him, sends him into cardiac arrest.
The other officer pulls car over with driver girlfriend/wife and child. The guy is doing what he is supposed to be doing, but the cop
fires into a car full of people. I don't know if he got time, I think the case is still open.
The officers are kill black folks and don't get time. The officer stuns a white guy and gets time for violating his rights.....That's why Black people get upset.
What's the difference, one driver is white, one is black. would the cop that stunned the white driver also have stunned a black driver, I don't know, but you can only look at the patterns just like everyone else, and the patter says he probably would have shot.